kevinfschultz

iTrader: (2)

Those of you following the 2011 STU thread probably knew this question was coming.

My clutch started slipping at the CO Tour last weekend. Assuming its the original it has 57K on it with lots of launches, AX, RX, track days so not too bad in terms of durability. Still knowing it's a weak point and that I intend to keep doing SOLO PRO events I'd like to install the most durable option possible - without cheating or exaggerating. Here is what the good book says (emphasis is mine):

13. STOCK CATEGORY — 71
Alternate components which are normally expendable and considered replacement parts (e.g., engine and wheel bearings, seals, gaskets, filters, belts, bolts, bulbs, batteries, brake rotors, clutch discs, pressure plates, suspension bushings, drivetrain mounts, fenders, trim pieces, etc.) may be used provided they are essentially identical to the standard parts (e.g. have the same type, size, hardness, weight, material etc.), are used in the same location, and provide no performance benefit. The allowance for use of such replacements does not include camshafts, differential covers, or ring-and-pinion sets, nor does it authorize the use of piston rings having different configurations (e.g. “Total Seal”) from those of the original.


L. Limited-slip differential, transmission and differential ratios, clutch mechanisms and carburetion, fuel injection or supercharger induc- tion systems must be standard as herein defined.


12.4 STANDARD PART
An item of standard or optional equipment that could have been or- dered with the car, installed on the factory production line, and delivered through a dealer in the United States. Port-installed options provided by the factory are considered to be the same as those installed on the factory production line. Dealer-installed options or deletions (except as
SECTION 12 — 67required by factory directives), no matter how common or what their origin, are not included in this definition. This definition does not allow the updating or backdating of parts.




I know the answer - just don't like it. Has anyone specifically asked for clarification on this? Anyone see any relief in the sections I posted or am I just wishful thinking?

Only good side to this - I almost installed a different front sway bar before CO - that would have really pissed me off.

Thanks,
Kevin

blkmkIII

iTrader: (34)

I am pretty sure I have herd stock clutches only...

JDMS60R

iTrader: (9)

Mine just went out at 53k, my evo shop mechanic said that the evo 9 oe clutch is stronger than the evo 8 oe clutch. Either way I have a 9 so thats what he put in. I have already accepted the fact I will be changing out the clutch every year! Yeah me

Also I couldn't find a stock type replacement via the local parts stores, so that narrows it down to the dealer

Butt Dyno

iTrader: (10)

I think "essentially identical to the standard parts (same type, size, hardness, material)" gives some wiggle room there. Exedy makes the stock clutch, right? Maybe an Exedy stage 1 would be essentially identical to the stock one and not provide a performance advantage, I dunno. It would also depend on how one interprets performance advantage - we could all put serious clutches in our cars and not really go any faster at a normal Solo event, and just not be replacing the clutch as often. It depends on how defensible you think it is... I think there's a case to be made there assuming you could find an essentially-identical clutch but I don't know what a PC would say.

That said, I plan on running the OE one, and avoiding co-driven Pros, and generally not doing many Pros

GoTopless

Exedy also makes this:
http://www.lancershop.com/customer/p...cat=113&page=1

I think it would be hard to convince the Chief of Protests that the Exedy Stage 1 is the OEM clutch when they also make that 'OEM replacement' kit.

Caffeine Slug

iTrader: (3)

You're pretty much stuck with the stock clutch. Allowing better clutches has been discussed quite a bit since Street Touring started, and the STAC hasn't budged on that. Or you could stop running pros and it won't be an issue, but they're just too much fun!

Butt Dyno

iTrader: (10)

You don't have to convince them or anyone that it IS the OEM clutch.

You have to convince them that it is:
* "essentially identical" to the stock clutch (and if they're both organic... maybe they are essentially identical?)
* no performance advantage (I have no idea what this means - but a different organic clutch isn't going to make you faster... probably?)

I'm saying - I think with some research (and with a clarification of what "performance advantage" means) you could make a decent case. I'm also saying that I'm not willing to make it with my own car

chono

Okay - I just read this post and it sounds harsh.. so let me start buy saying:
I've read the same rule and wished for the same as you. Stared at it whilst holding my breath, even. No dice.

You missed the most important part when you added your emphasis..
So you want a better clutch that isn't better?
Good luck!
It doesn't say - 'minimal performance benefit' or 'slight' .. it says 'no.'

I read this rule as:
you can buy non-performance aftermarket stuff. Stuff that saves you money from the OEM components. Stuff that isn't as good as the OEM.

The rule says that the BEST component you can buy is the OEM, but you're welcomed to get something else.

If it sucks less than OEM, then it's a performance benefit.
Lighter? Better grab? Better heat resistance?

You wouldn't be staring at this rule if you wanted something that sucked the same amount as OEM.

-'chono'

kevinfschultz

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the comments and sympathy - it is what it is. As I said in the first post I know the answer just don't like it.

Ben is right the PRO's are the most fun in AX and I won't stop doing those.

I still question the performance benefit - assuming same weight and material if the OEM clutch is operating correctly is there any? Mathmatically perhaps but in reality no - in my opinion. Chrono I respect your opinion but it not consistent with the other consumables listed - we don't put in OEM quality bushings, brake pads, batteries, bolts - we put in better quality everyone does it.

I did go back years in SCCA forums to see what discussion had taken place. Interesting reading - as usual everyone ganged up on the EVO driver. I didn't see any posts from the STAC but a lot of discussion on why the words "essentially the same" are even included.

I'm registered for the FINALE got to get my new clutch broken in .
Hope to see you all at Nats or the Finale.

Kevin

Caffeine Slug

iTrader: (3)

Keep in mind that the rules are written with Solo use in mind, where a stock clutch works just fine and can last a long time. The classes and rules don't care about Pros.

Compared to things like bushings and brake pads, with a clutch there is a lot more room to abuse a rule that opens those up to aftermarket replacements. I don't know that anyone in ST wants the types of clutches you occasionally see in SP. If someone can write a rule that allows a slight upgrade but doesn't let you buy a small diameter lightweight clutch, there will probably be some support behind that. I've seen plenty of attempts, but nothing practical or enforceable.

chono

Agreed!
I want a better clutch - but I want to keep it drivable. As soon as you open the clutch rule we'll have full race clutches in the class.
I'm totally open to having better clutches - just not sure how you'd make the rule without opening it to SP clutches. Limit the number of pucks? Limit the clutch material?
And too many limits like this creates a new problem -- where no off-the-shelf part meets the rule -- and some enterprising soloer fabs a custom part. A part far more expensive than a (better) off the shelf part.

The cost to run a fancy aftermarket job will be lower over the years -- since it has to be cheaper than installing a new OEM piece every year!

The bigger rule problem IMO is the 'boost creep' allowance... but that's a topic for another thread.

-'chono'

sscottttt

iTrader: (4)

I'd say buy a basic stage 1 clutch (exedy, act, etc. whichever looks closest to factory) paint the pressure plate the same color as OE and no one will ever know the difference. When it comes to racing I'm all against blatant cheating but the performance advantage of this will be very minimal if any, the benefit will be in the longevity/replacement cost. I remember reading on RRE's website previously that they had an essentially stock looking replacement clutch that had fooled many Mitsu techs during warranty claims, I can't find it on their site anymore but it may be worth looking into.

Caffeine Slug

iTrader: (3)

Just having illegal parts on your car at a big event is one thing, worst case you get a DSQ. Trying to cover it up and pass it off as legal sets you up for far worse though, including fines and/or suspension (as has happened to people in the past). It's not likely anyone would be protested for this kind of thing in the first place, but that's what you're up against. If nothing else, it's not fair to the drivers spending the money to be legal.

(Not saying you specifically of course, but anyone that chooses to go this route.)

kevinfschultz

iTrader: (2)

scott - i agree on the performance and I've thought long on just putting x brand stage 1. i don't think that is in the spirit of the rules and so much of this nerdy sport is self policed i want to win like everyone but using the same stuff.

lots of the old threads were around this idea that it would be hard to write a rule to fix this. I'd say not, "replacement clutches shall be same material of equal weight and match type as OE. clamping force increase is unlimited."

the problem with this is it fixes a problem for the EVO - should the STAC write a special rule for every car that has a weak point? probably not although I think there is precedent with the cat rule for STX.

my OE clutch did last for 50K so it ain't that bad.

Kevin

Jeff_Jeske

iTrader: (66)

The stock clutch disk can be had for under $200. Just do the work yourself. Its inexpensive to replace. I run birthing but stock clutch. I'm on my second disk.