The building of AMS TA X! BACK ON TRACK!
Jun 15, 2009, 04:21 PM
#481
Jun 17, 2009, 08:40 AM
#484
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Does anyone know what the current track record is at AutoBahn for a "Production based car"....?
I expect this car to be a serious threat to that record.
What do Porsche GT3 Cups run there?
Speed GT cars?
Rolex GT cars?
Maybe the highest level of Porsche Club of America race cars?
I expect this car to be a serious threat to that record.
What do Porsche GT3 Cups run there?
Speed GT cars?
Rolex GT cars?
Maybe the highest level of Porsche Club of America race cars?
Jun 17, 2009, 09:11 AM
#485
I will find out for you Nick. There is a C6R clone (down to the last bolt) that lives at the track that has some pretty good times. He might be the record currently but I will check.
Edit: just left a message for the track manager, hopefully he will get back to me soon
Eric
Edit: just left a message for the track manager, hopefully he will get back to me soon
Eric
Last edited by AutoMotoSports; Jun 17, 2009 at 09:15 AM.
Jun 17, 2009, 12:46 PM
#486
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You guys should take sometime to consult with your aero guy.
The ideal position where to mount wing is far back as you can on the car but not where all the vacuum air and turbulence is. The area behind the rear bumper is all the vacuum air turbulence, when you place a wing above that, air traveling underneath the airfoil will get pull by the turbulence, this will cost separation airflow passing through the wing, which cost more drag and early stall on the wing.
You need to bring the wing towards the front a bit, away from the vacuum pocket where trailing edge of the trunk. When airflow has no more surface support for it to stay on, it will drop down and create turbulence.
Few examples :
The ideal position where to mount wing is far back as you can on the car but not where all the vacuum air and turbulence is. The area behind the rear bumper is all the vacuum air turbulence, when you place a wing above that, air traveling underneath the airfoil will get pull by the turbulence, this will cost separation airflow passing through the wing, which cost more drag and early stall on the wing.
You need to bring the wing towards the front a bit, away from the vacuum pocket where trailing edge of the trunk. When airflow has no more surface support for it to stay on, it will drop down and create turbulence.
Few examples :
Last edited by Final Gear; Jun 17, 2009 at 12:49 PM.
Jun 17, 2009, 01:19 PM
#487
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You guys should take sometime to consult with your aero guy.
The ideal position where to mount wing is far back as you can on the car but not where all the vacuum air and turbulence is. The area behind the rear bumper is all the vacuum air turbulence, when you place a wing above that, air traveling underneath the airfoil will get pull by the turbulence, this will cost separation airflow passing through the wing, which cost more drag and early stall on the wing.
You need to bring the wing towards the front a bit, away from the vacuum pocket where trailing edge of the trunk. When airflow has no more surface support for it to stay on, it will drop down and create turbulence.
Few examples :
The ideal position where to mount wing is far back as you can on the car but not where all the vacuum air and turbulence is. The area behind the rear bumper is all the vacuum air turbulence, when you place a wing above that, air traveling underneath the airfoil will get pull by the turbulence, this will cost separation airflow passing through the wing, which cost more drag and early stall on the wing.
You need to bring the wing towards the front a bit, away from the vacuum pocket where trailing edge of the trunk. When airflow has no more surface support for it to stay on, it will drop down and create turbulence.
Few examples :
Jun 17, 2009, 01:33 PM
#489
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Final Gear,
I'm not sure if you're talking to AMS or the user comments, but I don't see the relevance of posting a bunch of racecars that run in highly regulated series. The size, shape, and position of the rear wing is severely limited for all of the posted cars. AMS has no such restriction, as they run in the unlimited TA class. I would think that moving the rear spoiler up and back, as they have, gets it well clear of the turbulent airflow in the car's wake. I still do think, however, that in an unregulated competition, such as the unlimited TA class, there are better aero solutions than what AMS has so far.
l8r)
I'm not sure if you're talking to AMS or the user comments, but I don't see the relevance of posting a bunch of racecars that run in highly regulated series. The size, shape, and position of the rear wing is severely limited for all of the posted cars. AMS has no such restriction, as they run in the unlimited TA class. I would think that moving the rear spoiler up and back, as they have, gets it well clear of the turbulent airflow in the car's wake. I still do think, however, that in an unregulated competition, such as the unlimited TA class, there are better aero solutions than what AMS has so far.
l8r)
Jun 17, 2009, 02:24 PM
#490
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Final Gear,
I'm not sure if you're talking to AMS or the user comments, but I don't see the relevance of posting a bunch of racecars that run in highly regulated series. The size, shape, and position of the rear wing is severely limited for all of the posted cars. AMS has no such restriction, as they run in the unlimited TA class. I would think that moving the rear spoiler up and back, as they have, gets it well clear of the turbulent airflow in the car's wake. I still do think, however, that in an unregulated competition, such as the unlimited TA class, there are better aero solutions than what AMS has so far.
l8r)
I'm not sure if you're talking to AMS or the user comments, but I don't see the relevance of posting a bunch of racecars that run in highly regulated series. The size, shape, and position of the rear wing is severely limited for all of the posted cars. AMS has no such restriction, as they run in the unlimited TA class. I would think that moving the rear spoiler up and back, as they have, gets it well clear of the turbulent airflow in the car's wake. I still do think, however, that in an unregulated competition, such as the unlimited TA class, there are better aero solutions than what AMS has so far.
l8r)
), look at Pikes Peak (admittedly thin air exaggerating things) but no rules on aero compared to very heavily regulated ALMS, JGTC or even DTM (the most advanced aero of production based cars). They spend millions to optimize the car for their rules package, does anyone thing for a moment that if they could move their wings further back and front wings further forward or more pronounced they wouldn't?Generally speaking the further back a rear wing is or a front wing forward the smaller it can be and produce the same downforce with less drag. It is always drag vs. downforce facing the aero engineer and the AMS rear wing is definitely not in the "dead zone" behind the car (it is above it by a good amount).
I think we battle more with esthetics and the accepted norm and allow ourself to be artificially boxed in with our thinking. Props to Rado for having the nads to put that "ugly" front wing on the car and being brave enough to go for function over form. There are several other steps well beyond what is currently being done (by anyone) and we with the AMS car will slowly methodically work our way there... stay tuned and have an open mind
Remember the Chaparral 2J the Lotus 79 or the Brabahm BT46B anyone? anyone?
Just the tip of the iceberg..."unlimited" gotta' love it
Jun 17, 2009, 02:43 PM
#491
You guys should take sometime to consult with your aero guy.
The ideal position where to mount wing is far back as you can on the car but not where all the vacuum air and turbulence is. The area behind the rear bumper is all the vacuum air turbulence, when you place a wing above that, air traveling underneath the airfoil will get pull by the turbulence, this will cost separation airflow passing through the wing, which cost more drag and early stall on the wing.
You need to bring the wing towards the front a bit, away from the vacuum pocket where trailing edge of the trunk. When airflow has no more surface support for it to stay on, it will drop down and create turbulence.
Few examples :
The ideal position where to mount wing is far back as you can on the car but not where all the vacuum air and turbulence is. The area behind the rear bumper is all the vacuum air turbulence, when you place a wing above that, air traveling underneath the airfoil will get pull by the turbulence, this will cost separation airflow passing through the wing, which cost more drag and early stall on the wing.
You need to bring the wing towards the front a bit, away from the vacuum pocket where trailing edge of the trunk. When airflow has no more surface support for it to stay on, it will drop down and create turbulence.
Few examples :
Prodrive, pratt&miller and ferrari, and bmw can't afford such instruments....
Scorke
Jun 17, 2009, 02:45 PM
#492
Aero in its infancy was so fun because it was so over the top, now things are getting really subtle, DTM rear diffusers really blow my mind right now though.
www.mulsannecorner.com for anybody wanting to nerd out on some aero data.
Paul- what do you think would be a close to optimal lift/drag ratio for an evo in all out time attack form?
Scorke
Jun 17, 2009, 05:09 PM
#493
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sadly to see, someone still in his little own world playing with "strain gauges" ! CFD is what we use these days, look it up !
Here is a great article written by Simon Mcbeath, he is an aerodynamicist and wrote a book call competition car aerodynamics. In this article, it tells you where the wing should sit relationship to the wing cord size. Hopefully will help you guys out a bit.
I had to scan this from the magazine, its a bit hard to read, you might need to save it and enlarger it.
Here is a great article written by Simon Mcbeath, he is an aerodynamicist and wrote a book call competition car aerodynamics. In this article, it tells you where the wing should sit relationship to the wing cord size. Hopefully will help you guys out a bit.
I had to scan this from the magazine, its a bit hard to read, you might need to save it and enlarger it.
Jun 17, 2009, 05:55 PM
#494
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To say that the article states that "the wing should sit relationship to the wing cord size" is a gross oversimplification of what the article really states, which is more along the lines of: "On this particular vehicle, running this exact aero configuration (front splitter, rear diffuser, etc.), using this particular wing, at a fixed wing angle setting of 10 degrees, it appears that raising the wing past its own chord dimensions resulted in little additional gains in downforce."
I think the key here is the fact that we are talking about a coupe, not a 4-door sedan. On any vehicle you will reach a wing height were you will start to see minimal additional downforce gains. I would surmise that on the Exige, raising this particular wing to a height slightly greater than its chord dimension put it into clean air. I seriously doubt the same result would be gained from applying this method to an Evo. Personally I also didn't like that the results were graphed as a ratio of the wing chord dimension, as it leads the reader to believe that this is indeed an important ratio that may be applied to other scenarios. I'd much rather have known the actual wing chord dimension.
l8r)
I think the key here is the fact that we are talking about a coupe, not a 4-door sedan. On any vehicle you will reach a wing height were you will start to see minimal additional downforce gains. I would surmise that on the Exige, raising this particular wing to a height slightly greater than its chord dimension put it into clean air. I seriously doubt the same result would be gained from applying this method to an Evo. Personally I also didn't like that the results were graphed as a ratio of the wing chord dimension, as it leads the reader to believe that this is indeed an important ratio that may be applied to other scenarios. I'd much rather have known the actual wing chord dimension.
l8r)
Jun 17, 2009, 06:26 PM
#495
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All conjecture sans data, I would imagine that wing mounting will change if it proves inefficient. This is after all; a brand new car,
Note the aeromotions logo on the TA-X wing. That opens up many more options in the positioning department.
There's a lot of green grass on the aero field in the Unlimited classes of the time trial series for sure. To fully exploit these rules and develop a car around them can be prohibitively expensive in both time and money. This car is brand new and I would imagine it won't have a short life cycle. Give the AMS guys some time and I'd expect suitable downforce for the rule set and working capital. After all, time trial leagues just arent developed to the point where one could reasonably spend the dough to make the "perfect" unlimited car,
Note the aeromotions logo on the TA-X wing. That opens up many more options in the positioning department.
There's a lot of green grass on the aero field in the Unlimited classes of the time trial series for sure. To fully exploit these rules and develop a car around them can be prohibitively expensive in both time and money. This car is brand new and I would imagine it won't have a short life cycle. Give the AMS guys some time and I'd expect suitable downforce for the rule set and working capital. After all, time trial leagues just arent developed to the point where one could reasonably spend the dough to make the "perfect" unlimited car,